1st handgun
 

hey guys, I'm new here. Just bought my first Gold and Silver and looking to purchase my first hand gun with classes/training. I'm looking at three or four options and need your advice:

1. Sig Sauer 220 .45

2. H&K .45

3. 1911 kimber .45 ACP

4. Glock 21 .45

Which one in your opinion and why. I've done some research buy wanted to hear your advice. I'm leaning toward the 1911, because of the amount of parts available ( Goood during end times), customization, and etc. I think I would more likely invest in a gun smithing course with the 1911. Actually it doesn't matter, i'll look into a gun smithing course irrespetive of the hand gun.

Any advice on training courses or Gun Smithing courses?

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I think if your main criteria is availability and interchangability of parts, customizations etc then 1911 or Glock is your best bet.

If you poke around at the glock forums there will be much discussion about the calibre changes you can do to a single glock. I think each glock is upgrade-able to the next calibre up with a barrel swap. Kind of 2 guns in 1.

1911's well you answered that already.

I've used H&K and I don't mind them. Glocks I have used but I personlly don't like them, too snappy for my liking. I've not used either in that calibre though.

Sig Sauer is probably top $ and style but I don't know how easy parts are to come by especially if SHTF.

I think the 1911 or glock for that "easy find" parts and interchangability.

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...................

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Although it is not on the list, I love Springfeild"s XD series pistols and carry one with me at work every day (sub-compact .40). A good light is a smart purchase as well.

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You cannot go wrong with any of the choices on your list.
Just start with one, and collect them all.
Guns, like PMs, are hughly addictive......

A sig 229 was my first weapon, and one of the only ones I've kept through the years. I love it. 100% realiable and I'm accurate as hell with it....which is saying something since I don't practice that much.

Btw, Sigarms makes 1911s too......

https://www.sigsauer.com/Products/Sh...&productid=208

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1. The firearm has to fit your hand. ( you must be able to manipulate the controls without shifting your grip)
2. You have to be able to handle the recoil in a defensive/ tactical shooting mode. ( I see lots of shooters do well until they double tap something then it all goes to crap because they cannot hold the firearm tight enough to control the recoil)
3. If you look at the Glock 21 check out the short frame model (21sf)as it is a bit thinner than the regular 21.
4. 45acp is a great caliber if the above criteria are met so you are on the right track, but is is a lot for a first gun.

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If you want only one .45 pistol to fill multiple needs, check out the Kahr CW.45. It's accurate enough and barely large enough with it's 3.64" tube to fill the role of a primary or service size sidearm, while small and slim enough to also serve as a CCW. The only dowside is it's only a 6+1 capacity if you use flush fit mags.

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Go with either the Sig or the HK. They're both of the highest quality, double action and will retain their value somewhat. The Kimber is great but single action - so skip that one. Glock's are downright ugly. People who can't afford a Sig or HK go with the Glocks because their significantly cheaper - proven reliablilty though.

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I have the P220 Carry, and love it. Fits like a glove, and the bullet goes where I want it to.

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none of the above. if youre a noob get a revolver in 357. sp101 or a taurus snubbie.

those are all great handguns but you got a lot to learn befoe you mess with autos.

like accidents for starters. a double action helps protect you while you learn to keep your finger off the trigger when handling the piece. they aint like rifles.

edit: oh crap I see mtnman said the same. well there you go !

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I've always been partial to wheel guns myself. I do own a couple colt .45 autos. I've got a Double Eagle. It shoots fine, but I wish I would have just spent the extra dough on a gold cup. It's been 18 years since I've bought my autos. With all of the new goodies out there, I'm sure it's time I upgraded. Anyone have any experience with the S&W, M&P autos? Nice looking guns. A guy like Jerry Miculek (fastest man alive with a revolver) can really make you appreciate revolvers as well.

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+1 I also believe revolver shooters are more accurate. Develop good habits on a revolver and you will be a better shooter in the long run. BUT that being said I would highly recommend a 1911. I think Springfield or Taurus would be a great entry level 1911. Both have added safety features that can be swapped out with stock parts relatively easily. (MSH for the Springfield and hammer for the Taurus) Kimber use to be good. If you can find a series I jump on it other wise stay away. Quality has gone way down.

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1234567890

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My first was a Ruger Mark III. It is a nice gun, but I am probably going to get a different/smaller gun to carry around with me on a daily basis.

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Why is it the old guys always promote "wheelguns".....lol....

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Because Wheelguns are the most reliable.

I can shoot a smiley face into the paper target at 10 yards using .38 specials in my snubby .357 mag Ruger Security 6.

BTW, Im far from old.

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I love my Taurus 24/7 Pro .45 and would recommend one to anyone.

Ive got close to 500 rounds thru mine and it only shoots better every time I go to the range.

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From what I have read, the Taurus 24/7 is a great gun. That just might be my next purchase.

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yes, with your first handgun, spend some time getting comfortable with it and being a bit focused on safety.

also, remember, every gun can kill or maim you--especially your own.

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I saw this guy Jerry Miculek on tv shooting his S&W revolver. He was shooting at steel targets, maybe 10 yards or so. Aside from hitting a target on every shot, he fired 6 rounds, reloaded with a moon clip, and fired the remaining six, all in under 6 seconds! Pretty amazing. He is near 60 years old as well.

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They had magazine issues with some of the first runs but Taurus quickly got that issue solved by re-designing the mags. So if you read anything that says their 24/7 pros were jamming and stovepiping, check the date of the articles

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IIRC I saw him shoot balloons on targets from 250 yards away with a snubby S&W 38 special.

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I have a beautiful great looking stainless colt combat commander....ammo is expensive, recoil is a bitch to keep on target, it is a mutherducker to break down (finger cruncher), and it is so heavy that if I had to I could club someone to death with it. Also, it's difficult to conceal. Sounds nice huh?

Conversely, have a .40 Taurus Millenium Pro that ammo is relatively inexpensive, no recoil, easy to break down, and light enough I can carry in my running shorts if i need to.

If I could only take one gun with me as I run out the door it would be the Taurus.

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Yeah, Jerry, and that Tom Knapp guy can really do some amazing things with guns!

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Because we�ve been around and know what works and what doesn�t. This is what I carry everyday everywhere. I have several 1911�s, a Beretta 92, a Ruger 22/45, and a Sig 226 but for ease of carry my S&W Bodyguard is the way to go.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...an37879/SW.jpg

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What caliber is your combat commander?

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Mountain Man, I have a S&W Model 37 airweight snubbie. Bought it near 20 years ago. The grips cost damn near as much as the gun. I think I only paid $225.00 at the time. Grips were $150.00.

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.45 caliber

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What type of ammo are you shooting, that is so expensive? By the way, the grips on my model 37 are Ivory. I couldn't edit my post for some reason.

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I bought a Tarus Mill Pro 45 BRAND NEW about a year ago. I traded it off for a Glock 30

I had the the Mill Pro for about 3 months when I was out shooting one day and the slide locked up on me. It would NOT cycle. After i finally got it broke down, I found that the steel slide rail was "shaving" the slide. I'm not sure to this day what caused it exactly- always used "quality" brass cased American ammo- Mostly target loads and NO +P's.
Well I couldn't have that. I filed the rough edges and got it functional again.. even popped off a few more mags to be sure. However, the action was never the same after that. Just real rough feeling. I took it into the gunshop for a trade on a new G30. They were happy to do business - Even complimented me on how clean it was:D

I did my homework before I bought that Taurus- Heard the good reviews and the people who were disappointed w/ it. I regretted having bought that gun.

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As long as you get a bigger caliber too you'll be fine. That ol .22 will get you a first class trip to the morgue.

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I don't get the whole Taurus thing. I know they make decent guns, but alot of what they offer appears to be clones of other gun makes. I've never heard of someone having to return a S&W gun for repairs, yet have heard several people having problems with their Taurus guns. My Buddy bought a Taurus revolver some years ago, and it felt/looked like a cheap copy of a S&W. I'm sure their guns are better made now. At the time, He saved about $50.00 by getting the Taurus over the S&W. Didn't seem like money well saved to me. My Brother had a Taurus PT92 clone. While it was a decent gun, I would have rather spent the extra bucks and got the Beretta.

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I agree with the old guys.

.357 revolver would be a fine choice.

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depends on the model. the wheelgun copies of the smiths are pretty good. I dont know about the autos, maybe you are right. but then again I dont like da/sa setup anyhow, and prefer the glock or 1911 in an auto.

I really like the taurus 357 snubbie hydraported. nice heft to the piece too, feels like you could backhand somebody with it if necessary and break their face. LOL

I started out carrying a colt detective special in 38 with some HP loads I used to be able to buy at the lake county IL gun shows, that were just as hot as corbons but only as expensive as hardball. that was a nice setup.

PS get some good leather, if you have a sucky holster you wont be able to carry it effectively.

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Lets just say I did my homework on that too.... no one had anything good to say about the turn around time (3+months in some cases if I remember correctly) - and after the sour taste left in my mouth over the malfunction and failure, didn't care to even own a taurus semi auto any longer.. Now - Their WHEEL guns I have heard no bad reports about. Raving reviews actually...

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AGREED!
IM IN!

nuttin like a HI cap 1911

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If it's your first gun, I'd start with a smaller caliber than .45. The big bang and recoil, while making the gun more efficacious at stopping a target, also make it harder to train yourself properly... you could end up flinching or worse. Some people do well on large calibers and some don't. If you want to do it right, why not start smaller and work your way up? You could even hold off on purchasing for a while, and rent guns from your local range -- that way you can try out a large variety and get a feel for them and decide which one you like best.

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Wow!!

You guys are sooo GREAT! Thanks for all the advice. First and foremost I want to say thank you for all the info from all your experience. I've decided to go with the Sig Sauer 220 and enroll in the academy right away, and practice, practice, practice. I need to save a little money, but I'll be there soon enough.

As far waiting and starting with a revolver, I don't think I have that much time to wait. Same reason I bough PM now, not later. I wanna be ready for when SHTF. I'm not gonna be stuck with a revolver as noobie when SHTF. I'm smart and learn fast! No disrespect to anyone out there. I have big hands and a bigger heart.

Many of the guns are not California compliant, so I decided on the 220 Sig Sauer, the 250 isn't compliant. I'll eventually get a 1911 and revolver .357, but starting with the sig, seems like the sensible thing to do at the moment. Also looking at a shot gun for personal home defense.

I don't wanna wait on my hand gun, just like I don't wanna wait on my Gold or Silver. I just bought PM for the 1st time last weekend at a coin show. It hurt, but dammit, i'm glad I did it. I feel the same way about the Sig. When I buy, it may sting in the pocket, but I'll be glad I did it!

Thanks, you guys and gals are freakin awesome!

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I didn't read all of the gun porn so this may have already been suggested. Since you are going to pay for training why don't you try to find a trainer who will allow you to try some of their various firearms? That way you will have a better idea of what fits your hands and needs. I love my S&W 642 for light carry.

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Sig P220 is a fine weapon. You made a good choice. Do make sure it fits your hands and that you can shoot well with it. For ammunition, I recommend Speer Gold Dots.

If you can go to a gun range that rents weapons, you could rent 4 or 5 and see which one fits you best.

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I was researching how to make my own rounds and came across this, I think you guys will enjoy. I'm a big D.I.Y.er I do my own Beer, wine, cheese, and etc. Always looking to be more self reliant and sustainable. here's the article:

http://www.realtechnews.com/posts/1487

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I wouldn't say that at all. I didn't even own a wheel gun until about 2 years ago, lol.

Besides if he's worried about safeties, get a gLock or a XD Nothing to go wrong there.

+1 For checking out the Springfield XD before buying anything.

and +1 to checking which gun fits best for you. The list of 4 you put down run the gambit from smaller frame (1911) to the HUGE gLock frame. The sig 220 is fine weapon as well.

Me I love the feel of and own a 1911 and HK USP 45, have an XD too but thats in 9mm, the .45 is pretty close in size from the ones I've handled. The gLock in .45 is to big for my hand, much bigger than my full size USP 45 in fact.

I just realized as I skimmed back before finishing you are opting for the p220. Nice weapon and a solid choice.

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Ever since Tarus-Brasil started doing business in the US (early 80's) their product has been renowned as cheaply made, substandard junk. It's one of the worst firearm manufactures today and it's a wonder they're still in business. I think it's the people who know nothing about firearms and have limited funds that are buying them. Tarus use Smith and Wesson patents on their revolvers but the tooling and machining is done by unskilled laborors in Brazil - probably child labor but I'm not sure.

Tarus in my mind is equivelent to the following manufacturers:

Rossi
Llama
Astra
Star
AMT

Don't trust your life on a piece of crap gun!

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By whom? The guys that have thousands of dollars to spend on A handgun?

BTW, Taurus started selling pistols in the US back in the 70's


Do you own a Taurus? I do and I can tell you that my 24/7 pro is every bit as well made as the Glock, Ruger, S&W, Springfield, etc etc etc....



Yeah, I know nothing about firearms :sarcasm: I only grew up around them. And NO I didnt have $700+ to blow on a pistol that does that same exact thing as the $420.00 Taurus I bought.

And do you know why Taurus pistols looked like S&W pistols???

Lets take a look at a paragraph from the Taurus history page

As far as their tool and die makers being unskilled, well, lets just say that you cannot be a tool and die maker and be unskilled. If that was the case, Taurus wouldn't have made it as a manufacturer.


I would rather have any of those pistols and not need it than not have any of those pistols and need it.

The Rossi is what it is a well built cheap priced hand gun that wont break your wallet I have a friend that owns one.

Ive never had any problem with the Llama .380 I own.

Astra Ive never heard anything bad about although I dont own one, I believe they make firearms for the Spanish military and police.

Star is a very old company, I know that their older pistols chambered in 9mm Largo back in the 30s and 40s are still safe to shoot. Their Firestars Ive heard were junk, but I don't ever believe anyone until Ive shot the firearm in particular.

Its like the High Point, Its an ugly gun that looks like a piece of crap and everyone told me its a POS but Ive seen different.


All kinds of people told me that same thing when I bought my Norinco Mod. 213 Tokarev chambered in 9mm Para. I was told that they weren't accurate, That it would wear out after 500 rounds, that the slide rails would warp, It would blow up in my hand, etc etc etc... And you know what? After about 1000 rounds and going on 17 years later, I can still put all 8 shots into the head on a paper target with about a 2 inch grouping.

On the other hand, lets take a look at what police officers are saying about the Smith and Wesson MP

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52230

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I agree that a revolver is the best first gun. A Ruger or S&W 357 is a classic, ultra reliable, strong as an ox, inexpensive, and is just a super mean caliber.

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:D Nice post Rob.
I have a Taurus 1911. Shoots like butter, way more accurate than I am, and not one problem in over 700 rounds.

I'd love to have a Wilson Combat, but for $2000++???
No thanks, I'll stick with my Taurus.

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Sounds like more of the Cops over there, would rather carry a .45, as opposed to a .40. I have yet to shoot a .40 cal. How do you guys feel about that? My Dad has a 10mm Colt auto. That thing kicks like a Mo Fray! I've always liked the .45 round. Seems to make the most sense in a defensive situation, lots of lead, and won't go through three houses like a big magnum! LOL!

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My sisters ex-boyfriend had a S&W M1076 and it was a handful. It was pretty good accuracy wise as I shot a bullseye on my first shot, but the recoil was stout.

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I agree with your conclusion but disagree that Taurus is crap. Thats wrong. You've really overgeneralized there. But it was spoken like a true gun dealer trying to move his expensive smiths and berettas. LOL. Some of those other manufacturers arent bad either. I base my opinion not only on two decades of shooting but also gun tests and other publications that objectively evaluate similar types side to side. Taurus 357 is a very solid piece.

Also the point about a revolver is that it's inherently less prone to malfunction than an auto. A thousand things can go wrong with an auto, here's the top thee:

limp wristed induced jams
feeding malfunction jams from failure to seat magazine correctly
cycling jams caused by slide snagging or being interfered with

most encounters are resolved within 7 yards and in less than 6 shots anyways so what does an autoloader really offer? Concealability, mostly, which is definitely a plus and its why I have more than a couple autos. But jam in revolver almost never happens. a jam in an auto may mean death. you decide.

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I dig the bren ten, but its an oddball these days. .45 is prefered. .357 is good too.

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To the original posters question...my first choice Glock 21 (13+1) though I do like and own the Sig 220.

I personally believe for self-defensive purposes, one should purchase the highest quality handgun possible...since it is usually the weapon of LAST resort. I won't go into the revolver vs. automatic argument, but more rounds are better than less, IMO.

Following this line of thought is a piece by Gabe Suarez...sorry, I don't have the link.

From Gabe Suarez:

Magazine Capacity An Asset In A Gunfight

I suppose this will be yet another highly controversial issue, but what the heck. Controversy makes for interesting discussion, no? The issue is to look at whether high magazine capacity gives you a tactical advantage, or if we are better served by carrying an equally sized weapon with a smaller capacity of bigger bullets. Before I answer my own question, let me put forth some facts as seen both in force on force training and on the street.

Point One - Pistol bullets, regardless of caliber are all, what one colleague calls, "iffy". None can be guaranteed to drop an adversary in his tracks reliably. The notion of a one shot stop is an urban myth dreamed up by those with a vested interest in such things. I have seen 45s work and fail, and I have seen 9mm both work and fail. For the record, the only one shot drop (excluding head shots) I have ever seen with a pistol was fired by a good friend as we entered a crack house during a SWAT raid. He shot the bad guy squarely in the heart with 9mm +P+ out of a SIG P-226. He only fired once because the bad guy fell before my friend could reset his trigger for the next shot!

If we look at the three most prevalent calibers we see that there is very little difference between them. A 9mm (also .38/.357) is only one little millimeter smaller than the 10mm (aka .40 S&W), and that is only one little millimeter less than the vaunted 11mm (aka .45 ACP). And before we get into the high speed light bullet versus the heavy slow bullet argument, lets remember that you can only drive a pistol bullet so fast without drastically affecting its integrity. Moreover, since penetration is affected by weight, sacrificing weight for speed will not yield good results. Finally, you can only make a bullet so light or so heavy. There are limits to what you can shoot out of a pistol.

I have seen every one of these calibers fail at one time or another. There are those who disdain the 9mm as unsuitable for anything larger than squirrels. With modern ammunition, this is simply not true. There is also a myth and a cult grown up around the .45 ACP in this country. Sadly, it is not the deadly hammer of god its proponents suggest. This is not new. Read Fairbairn's Shoot To Live. He writes of two separate times when the .45 failed to work any better than anything else. Although one millimeter may give you a slight edge in a less than optimum body hit, under most circumstances, there will be very little difference between the effectiveness of the various calibers when modern anti-personnel ammo is used. Trauma injury doctors and reputable terminal ballistics experts tend to agree with this statement.

Point Two - Private Citizen CCW Operators do not go looking for trouble. If they are called to fight it is either because they have inadvertently crossed paths with bad guys while they are doing bad guy stuff (walking in on a robbery in progress as an example), or because they have been specifically targeted and stalked (such as a carjack, or home invasion event). They will have to use extreme violence to fight off the surprise attackers. When we translate the conversion of fright and startle into a firearm application we wee that definition is high volume of fire. You will shoot a lot, and until the threat is no longer there.

While these events share slightly different dynamics, the common thread often seen is that of multiple adversaries. The lone criminal or terrorist is an urban myth. If your fight only involves one, consider yourself lucky. More often than not you will be outnumbered.

Another point is the time frames in which these events take place. Think three seconds. After this, either you will be dead, or your adversaries will be dead. Urban gunfights do not go for hours. Unexpected, short duration, high intensity, extreme violence, multiple adversaries. That is the back drop.

Point Three - Our staff has collectively been in a large number of gunfights ranging from police, citizen, and military events. We draw on those experiences to set up mock gunfights in dynamic, unscripted force on force training drills. Although the surprise factor is missing (you generally don t know you will be in a gunfight until it is upon you), the dynamics of its evolution do not change much. Here are some other observations from watching hundreds of those drills.

1). Defenders will fire their weapons until the threat disappears. That means that until the role player falls down (simulating effective hits delivered), or runs away (removing the target), the good guy will keep firing. The concept of school solutions, controlled pairs, or otherwise artificially limiting the number of shots (as one does in a firing string on the range) does not hold up even in guys who've been extensively trained to do it.

2). When a training gun stops firing (due to running out of pellets), the shooter is still in the fight and still trying to shoot his enemy as well as trying to not be hit by him. We see them continue to try to work the trigger for one or two times before there is a realization that there has been a stoppage (malfunction or empty gun). This is followed by a visual examination of the gun, and only then is remedial action taken.

This can take upwards f a second and a half before anything is even attempted to fix the gun, and then the additional time needed to reload. Thus the idea that one can read the gun s feel and immediately realize a need to speed load simply does not hold up. Running out of ammo is usually a fight ender if there has been a failure to stop, or there are multiple adversaries at hand.

3). Participants in these reactive mock gunfights are debriefed immediately to get a clear picture of what happened before any rationalization takes place. Besides a shoot them to the ground firing process, most shooters do not remember seeing the crystal clear sight pictures they learned on the shooting range.

We see a great deal of point shooting, and gun index shooting. I have yet to see anyone strike a classic shooting posture and press off a carefully sighted pair in these room distance drills.

The point to remember is that in a fight such as what are likely for the private citizen, one can easily develop Bullet Deficit Disorder , and that this can have deleterious effects on the outcome of that fight.

The idea that a pair or trio of quality rounds carefully delivered onto a high scoring target zone will stop the action fails both the terminal ballistics test as well as the applications test.

A truth of gunfighting - Having more ammo immediately on board lessens the likelihood of ever needing to reload. Not needing to reload translates into more time delivering lead and less time manipulating the weapon. More trigger time increases likelihood of hitting, which increases survivability.

So the question is this. Given that there is a limit to the size pistol one can carry, do I want that pistol to hold more rounds? My answer is a strong YES!

Consider the similarly sized Glock 36 in .45 ACP, and the Glock 23 in .40 S&W. The latter holds nearly twice the ammo of the former in an almost identical package. The Glock 19 is an even more drastic comparison with 15 shots available. Of course there are also high capacity 45 pistols for those so inclined and for those who can wield them. I would argue that if your choice is a 45, a gun holding 13 would be better than a gun holding 6. And if your hand is too small for the 13 shooter, rather than decrease capacity, I d decrease caliber.

I have a colleague is South America who has been in High Risk Police Service for close to three decades. He has been in over three dozen verified gunfight . His weapon was originally a Browning Hi-Power and later a Glock 17.

I was very interested in hearing more so I asked him about the load he used. He said he had always used military ball full metal jacket. Astounded I asked him why he chose that. That is all we can get here. Hollow points are illegal .

I shook my head and told him that there was a belief in the USA that 9mm was an anemic caliber, especially in the load he d chosen. He shrugged and said that his adversaries must not have gotten the word. He said he fired a burst at the chest and if they didn't fall fast enough, he fired a burst at the face. He never needed to reload and had enough on board so if he missed a shot or two he could catch up in the fight. And before we hear the careful shooter versus the spraying prayer, this man is one of the best shots I have seen and competes on an international level. Even so, he knows the chaos in a gunfight can play havoc with even the most gifted marksman. Perhaps we need to take a lesson from him.

Me? I split the difference and carry a Glock 23 in .40 S&W. But I feel just as comfortable with a 15 shot 9mm.

While on the subject of Calibers

In variably one of the things asked by a prospective gunman, right after he decides which type of pistol to buy and carry, is what caliber should he get. In fact, you would be hard pressed to pick up any gun-related magazine and not see at least one article relating to ammunition and caliber choices.

Some instructors are also very caliber-focused, thinking that anyone who does not bring a 45 to class is unarmed. One student of mine who carries a 9mm was recently told that his 9mm was simply a 45 set on �stun�. (The commentator however, declined to be stunned.). So what should you do when trying to decide on calibers/loads, etc.? In a previous article we discussed the attribute of magazine capacity. Here we will discuss the characteristics of each caliber and give you some information so you can make up your own mind.
Issue Number One � Shootability.

I had a student come to class with a Glock 29 in 10mm. My philosophy is that students should bring whatever they want to carry, and that was his choice. The only problem was this gent weighed about 125 pounds, and was arthritic in both wrists. To make matters worse, he�d bought 500 rounds of the heaviest most powerful T-Rex stopping loads he could find in the caliber. To make a long story short, he ended up shooting the rest of the class with my Glock 17. That caliber/weapon combination may have made a fine choice for a larger and stronger man, but for him it was totally unusable.

The caliber choice must be first predicated on the reality of your physical condition. Can you shoot the thing? Can you train with it? If you wince in pain every time you fire that Dino-killer in training, you will never be able to use it well in a fight. Be honest with your self. Let your intellect and not your ego select your caliber.

Issue Number Two � Delivery Envelope.

Some students in my classes live and work in certain social circles where the pistol must not only be concealed, it must be covert. This means that weapon selection is as important as anything else. For them, an HK USP may be a fine weapon, but they will never carry it. Selecting a smaller weapon that will always be there may be a better choice.

There are small, large caliber weapons out there, but remember Issue Number One � how shootable is it for you. My friend with the super-charged Glock 29 was trying unsuccessfully to kill both issues with one choice. If you must carry a smaller weapon, and shootability issues are present, do not feel impotent because you had to decrease caliber size.

Issue Number Three � Availability.

By now we are entering the Hurricane season again and the memory of Katrina lies lightly on the minds of those who live in the Southeast. Natural disasters and riots can occur at any time. We are assuming that you will have your CCW pistol as a first line of defense until you can obtain something else. In the event you cannot get to your survival stash, you may need to resupply from regular sources.

If you carry a .357 SIG, or a 45 GAP, or any other new, non-mainstream caliber, do you think you will find the ammo you need? When I travel, I carry a Glock 17 in 9mm. Why? Because if my ammo does not arrive with my luggage (the illusion of security), I can always find 9mm. Perhaps not a huge issue but still something for consideration.

Issue Number Four � Effects On Target

This is where all the bullet salesmen come out and discuss amateur terminal ballistics. Listen folks � hundreds of thousands of people, both good guys and bad guys, have been killed with pistol shots in the last few decades. I will bet the majority of those have been shot with 9mm. Why do I say that? Because I travel all over the world to teach good guys how to prevail in gunfights and invariably the caliber of availability is 9mm.

�How on earth do they get past the fact that the 9mm is anemic and will bounce off a leather jacket?�, someone may ask. Truth be told, they shoot the bad guys until they either fall down or run away. Usually it is the former. Its only here in the USA that we are so fixated on this issue of one or two shots.

We may hear all manner of arguments about the one caliber or another being the only true choice, but I will tell you that no single caliber will be the best choice for everyone. Heck, some people are better served with a caliber like 22 LR due to physical limits from advanced age or injury!

All calibers can fail, and have failed. When you look at the issues scientifically a 9mm or a .38 Special is approximately .357. A 40 S&W is 10mm. And a 45 ACP is 11mm. So could it be that we have basically one or two little millimeters separating �T-Rex Stopper� from �Merely Adequate�, or �Anemically Inadequate�? Yes that is exactly right.

Let me put it in a different perspective. A student of mine who works for a narcotics Unit in the south recently reported in. He told me that he and his guys had gotten in a gunfight with a violent drug dealer. Our student shot the bad guy once with a shotgun loaded with Federal Tactical Slugs. (Slugs incidentally are about .72 caliber and are suggested as anti-bear insurance in Alaska ). The shotgun slug entered the right side of the bad guy�s chest from about the 2:00 and exited through the back at about the 8:00 .

Nice shot. However, the bad guy not only kept fighting, but stole a car and evaded the pursuing police officers into a wooded area. A week later, the bad guy�s attorney arranged for him to turn himself in. He was alive and well, albeit injured. Does anyone want to tell me how deadly their pistol round is now?

So select the size of your pistol first and foremost. Base it on what you need to carry it 24-7-365. That means all the time. Select a caliber that is easily obtained, and shootable for you. And finally, train to hit and keep hitting until the threat has gone away (one way or the other). A hit with a 9mm is far better than a marginal hit or a miss with a caliber you cannot control.

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Unfortunately, I live in the peoples republic of Ca. I don't know what a high capacity magazine is! Glad I got some pre ban stuff in the gun safe!

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You're going to get more opinions than you can shake a stick at, I might as well give you mine.

What's important in a handgun?

1.) dependable (goes bang when trigger is pulled)
2.) affordable
3.) will fire any ammo you put into it (not picky/finiky)
4.) customer support/lifetime warranty
5.) rugged and solidly constructed (will fire dirty/muddy, etc.)
6.) American-made (this is just my personal opinion)

These are the most important things to ME in a firearm. So therefore, most of my guns are Rugers. All guns will have most of those qualities, very few all of them. Ruger has all of them.

No doubt there are some "snobs" out there who will scoff and turn their nose up at Ruger. But I think a Ruger is a damn fine first pistol for someone who is learning the ropes.

I would suggest if you want a .45 the new Ruger p345 (Guns and Ammo gun of the year 2004) It's $400 brand new

If you want a 9mm the p-94 will do for around $300 brand new.

If you want a revolver things get even better, nobody makes a better all-around revolver than Ruger.

Good Luck.

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*Totally agrees about Rugers*

My second handgun that I ever bought was and is a Ruger Security Six .357 mag and I would have to say its the best handgun I own

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I realize that by my stating the facts about cheap low quality handguns has chapped a lot of you but, you'll have to admit you wouldn't get so angry and defensive if it weren't true. I see the same type of anger and "bargaining" when I bash the AK's and SKS's too. I can agree on one fact though, it's better to own a piece a junk than nothing at all . . .

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Huh? I'm confused.
Are you saying that Ruger is a "cheap gun" similar to a Taurus?

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Oh no. Ruger makes a fine firearm. Top shelf. Big Rob got pissed at me for slamming the Tarus.

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Oh, OK cool.
Never had a Taurus, can't really comment.

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Do you or have you ever owned a Taurus? What are you basing your opinion on?

My 24/7 Pro is far from the cheaply made junk gun you make it out to be. All the rounds (with the exception of 2 factory dud rounds) Ive shot out of it have always fed well and fired correctly. The accuracy on it is wonderful and it distributes the recoil nicely. It has a lifetime warranty that is not just for the original owner but for whomever owns the gun at the time of any failure that might happen.

In my experience gun dealers that tell you that the Taurus is crap have ulterior motives in trying to up sell you to a pistol that costs hundreds of dollars more thus increasing their profits.

Im not angry, you have the right to your opinion, but as for myself, Ill gladly buy another Taurus any day of the week.

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Im not pissed, I just think you're misinformed.

If you dont mind me asking what do you carry?

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I don't get this. Ruger and Tarus are on par as far as quality and cost. I don't see how anyone can rationally argue that one makes a better/worse firearm. The are both on par with each other and no way I'd say either one is 'top shelf'.

I've got a ruger p94, great gun, but it's still a ruger. It's never been as reliable or accurate as my XD's or HK's. It's sloppier, kinda like an AK but not in the good way. I liek our rugers and tarus', but they aren't "all that".

This is completely different than the AK issues either. AK's maybe 'sloppy' or 'not as accurate', but they are just if not mroe reliable than the top shelf jobs at 5-8 times the price.

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Id put my Ruger .357 mag revolver up against ANY Smith & Wesson .357 mag revolver in a battle of strength and general wear and tear.

My father has a Colt King Cobra .357 mag with an 6 inch barrel (supposed to be top shelf, sells for about $800 and up on gun broker) and he had to send it back to the factory to get the barrel re-aligned after shooting about 300-400 rounds thru it. Ive shot a lot of nasty loads that arent for those that cant handle stout recoil and it shoots just like the day it came out of the factory.

Top shelf is a relative term IMO

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you guys are awesome, keep the opinions flowing. I was actually thinking about armory and such. Whatever gun I buy, i want to be able to break it down and put it back together again and perform small repair. So the question of moving parts becomes a issue. Maybe revolvers aren't a bad idea, beyond load capability. They have less moving parts right? Which means they should go down less, and be easier to repair right. For a notice revolvers don't look as intimidating as a semi automatic to repair. All opinions are welcomed. I feel I've learned more in a day than I could have anywhere else. Thanks! When I buy I will post!

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M&P 40 here.

3000 down the pipe. I did break the striker dry fireing it about 1500 times.

Smith Fixed for free and tweaked it so it came back better than new.

Really good trigger makes a G21 feel terrible by comparison.

Accurate for me 75 in a two inch circle at 7yds Tuesday night.

There are a lot of good guns out there and you bought one. Shoot it a lot and have fun.

E-A

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taurus .38 spl snub, always with me, next handgun will be browning hi power 9mm, or the FEG clone of it. jerry kaunhausen has some excellent books on repair of pistols. used his info when i was refinishing pistols in alaska in the 80s. fun occupation, labor of love, need to have patience and the proper tools. good luck

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Work on it yourself? Glocks can be easily detail-stripped 99% with a simple tool and an easy to read book:

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SilverSalmon,

I think you are very late to the dance. There might be one song left to be played and it is not a slow-dance. You are just bullshitting yourself with talk about "armorers school". You may have time to get a class in, but if you are an Over-Achiever, there are a lot more serious issues for you to confront rather than doing trigger & accuracy jobs on your selected first handgun.

The best How To manuals for gunsmithing are the Jerry Kuhnhausen shop manuals. The colt 1911 is the premier semi-auto weapon, buy one and get the kuhnhausen book. Get a few tools if you want to feel like you are "doing something". The Colt is super easy to replace basic parts: barrel, mainspring, bushing, firing pin and ejector. Buy some spare parts ejector, firing pin, extractor, FP spring, mainspring. You can even buy a Ciener .22lr conversion kit, or some other slide/barrel conversions. Look at Brownells.com for parts or call and request a catalog (but I don't think you have that much time...).

Buy a Springfield Armory or Kimber, 4-6 extra magazines and learn to shoot the gun. The conversion unit will be handy to get the feel of it.

Only in the movies does a handgun serve as a main defensive tool. A good mil-spec .223 or .308 semi-auto rifle should be on your list also.

Have fun and do what you want, of course. Yet, deciding that you are going to tinker with your first handgun seems like a recipe for disaster to me. May as well buy one that is already accurized and made ready, then just take care of it.

I would recommend Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Protection, and To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Tell The Truth. Cooper covers many of the basics in To Ride. He is/was the Dean of the .45auto pisotleros, nobody can describe the compressed surprise break (trigger pull), stance basics, readiness, Conditions White to Red, better than the man who originated them. It may be quite a while before you can get a place in an instructional class. Read Cooper and then go to the range. You may just find that you have absorbed much of what it takes by his instruction.

Good luck to you.

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This was a awesome article thanks!!!!!!!!!

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Thanks for the honesty! I love it! I don't want to be a professional armorer. I simply want to be able to take it a part, keep it clean, put it back together, and fix, replace certain parts. i don't think that would cause me to be be bull shitting myself. I travelled across Afghanistan and pakistan as an American by myself, because people told me I couldn't do it. It was the time of my life and life changing. I CAN DO anything I PUT MY MINE TOO PERIOD!! I don't Talk I walk brother!! Sorry for preaching. Thanks again for the advice.

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There is no way in hell that anyone can convince me that a Tarus - Brasil is on par with any Ruger. Ruger is superior in strength and reliability plus they're made in the US by Americans.

However, I'd take a S&W model 66, 686 etc over a Ruger GP 100 or Redhawk 357 because of Smith's superior fit and finish. Anyone who knows revolvers and shoots on a regular basis can most likely attest to the superior quality and refinement of the Smith revolver line. So, as far as revolvers are concerned, the top of the list are:

Smith and Wesson
Ruger

These are the only ones I'd trust my life on if I had a choice.

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You sounded pissed. I actually wasn't trying to rile you :wink:

I don't own any guns. I've always thought about buying one. But really I enjoy reading about them.

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Me either.

Like I said, it never takes long for the anti-Ruger "snobs" to show up. It seems to happen every time I hear Rugers name mentioned.

I secretly suspect that many are still mad at Bill? Ruger for kind-of bowing to the pressures of the anti-gun crowd back years ago. He is dead and his son runs the show now, and he doesn't bow to those pressures.

Many anti-rugerites I guess have just decided never to forgive Ruger.

I honestly coudn't disagree more, if he's a new shooter, he needs a manual safety with his first handgun. I have been shooting handguns for 20 years, and I still am more comfortable with a manual safety on any gun.

Except for the small fact that there is no freakin' safety!

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Glock has three safeties: trigger safety, drop safety, firing pin safety...no less safe than any handgun...get over it.

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Not everyone is in agreement with you... get over it.

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75% of law enforcement in this country carry Glocks...I guess they are all idiots.

Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

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You said it, I didn't.

The simple fact of the matter is, Glocks have no external safety lever, if that doesn't bother you, buy one. If it does, don't.

But based on the fact that we are making pistol recommendations not for trained LEO's, but for a first time pistol owner, I consider a pistol without an external safety lever to be a bad recommendation.

I suppose we will agree to disagree.

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Im with mtn man here...IF you do choose an auto, skip the 1911 series as it is the least user friendly,i.e.cocked and locked =bs.... 3 safeties =bs...
SEVEN rounds = bs.

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As an instructor I do not recommend ANY first-time owner operate ANY firearm without proper instruction from a certified source.

The poster asked opinions of four specific autoloaders. I gave him mine. For the record, I believe Glocks are one of the SIMPLEST and SAFEST handguns to operate...no more complicated than revolvers. ANY firearm is dangerous in the hands of the uninformed, untrained shooter.

Still don't believe me about safety and reliabilty of Glocks? Go to your nearest friendly indoor gun rental range and count the number of Glocks vs. any other type of handgun they rent...then ask the managers why they rent them.

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Why would anyone not believe you about the safety and reliability of a Glock? Afterall, the first and best safety is the individual (this is where the training comes in handy). I don't like Glocks because there just plain ugly. Not a good excuse to disqualify a Glock though.

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Maybe 50% of the 75% are morons - not idiots.

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Well, my point was if Glocks were more dangerous than another type of firearm, law enforcement agencies would not issue them to their officers.

For personal defense, I recommend Glocks specifically because they DON'T have external safeties to fumble with. Speaking from firsthand experience, when adrenaline is pumping and you are in "fight or flight" mode, one of the first things you lose is FINE MOTOR SKILLS. Fumbling for or forgetting that the safety is on in a defensive situation when fractions of a second matter may get you killed. Believe me it happens...then there is that tunnel vision thing. The less you have to do or think about the better, you can just react.

Keeping your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot regardless of the type of handgun is only smart. And training, training, training until the response is an integral part of your memory.

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Unless you want to do machine shop jobs, manufacture parts, create custom barrels, reshape slides or other very involved tasks, you don't need to take an armorer's class. There are a couple of excellent 1911 forums that offer instructional sections for firearms assy and parts replacement. Similarly, www.ar15.com shows how to completely assemble an AR-15 rifle. There is also a Glock forum and likely Beretta and SIG forums as well. Try: http://forums.1911forum.com/ or http://forum.m1911.org/

For $25, the Kuhnhausen shop manuals will give you the most professional overview to firearm repair and customization.

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Texas DPS quit using glocks - too many ND's

Usually happens when they were all stoked up and reholstering. Adreneline is a double edge.

I think the whole external safety thing should be personal preference, but prolly not prudent for a noob.

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I'm unsure who's the bigger fool.....you.....or me for reading your posts in this thread.
:banghead::banghead::banghead:

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Winter Haven Florida PD is doing the same thing after they had 2 explode on the range. Later on in the article they say that other PDs around the nation are dumping the Glock as their duty arm as well.

http://www.theledger.com/article/200...803130481/1004

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that actually doesnt surprise me being that it was the .45 GAP...lotta heat in a little package... never felt right about that round:no_ma:

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DONT believe everything you read. Didn't you learn that in the third grade:tongue_ma:

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I wonder about bullet set-back issues with that round...

By the way, Westside Albuquerque PD have recently traded in their Sig P220s in 45 ACP for Glock 40s...

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I dont know if I would have done that

The Glocks barrels what what Ive read on the subject dont properly give full case support in the .40, 10mm, and .45

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

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Dean Speir is a Glock antagonist...the issue has been beat to death.

You feel nice and safe with your steel revolvers?

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Fair enough, but you making money as a Glock armorer as stated in your sig makes you what?
I'm not trying to be a dick, but c'mon... It's hard for me to accept you as "Mr. Unbiased".

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Yes I do have a bias and NO I have never made a dime helping people with gun questions. I don't work for anyone. My advice and Glock armorers service is free.

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Thanks for your honesty.

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Thanks, That's advice I could use. Going to check out some pistols this weekend.

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I never said steel revolvers are safe from Kabooms now :)

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And no, I don't load super hot reloads to blow it up, I don't think most people would do that to their auto pistols either.

http://www.army.lt/guns/other/pist07-2.jpg

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If you want a good, tough, industrial strength battle TOOL in your hands get yourself the GLOCK 21.

If youre going to get a pistol get a .45, dont piss around with 9mm and other silly rounds.

If you want something to show off to your friends as if it were a classic 66 convertible mustang get yourself a good 1911.

They are both EXCELLENT weapons, the 1911 needs finer tuning and more tender loving care and they can be expensive and even more expensive to modify but the modifications are ENDLESS in that regard.

A Glock, in my opinion, is a working man's tool, it will perform for you when you need it, it is tough, it is VERY reliable and it will go bang when you pull the trigger and it will do so right out of the box.

I own both 1911s and Glocks and I have nothing but respect for the 1911 platform and I would not trade mine for anything, it shoots well and it is accurate and they are very sexy looking, but if I had a 1911 on the table and a Glock on the table and I had to pick ONE OF THEM UP on a split seconds notice to defend myself, you can bet your ass I will pick up the Glock ten times out of ten.

I also own several 44 mag revolvers in both smith and wesson and ruger, all of which are built like tanks and if I had to pick up ONE GUN to run to the hills and could only take that ONE GUN with me, it would be a 44 mag revolver.


IF you want to learn more about Glocks and ask people who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT when it comes to Glocks, go to the discussion forum Glocktalk.com, its a great forum and there are a lot of Glock experts there who are certified and can help answer any question you may have.

In ending, I would like to make it clear that KABOOMS can happen in ANY GUN, not just Glocks and it is NOT a problem that occurs due to GUN DESIGN, it is an AMMUNITION problem. As I said, if you want to know about Glocks join the forum where they are discussed 24 hours a day every day by people who own, shoot, carry, fix and train people with them: Glocktalk.com.

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Yes, I agree you can blow up anything if you are not careful, so...

Stay informed, stay safe

and have fun out there Ffolkes! :wink:

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Recently bought the Springfield XD in 45ACP for myself.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hs-xd-3.jpg

I'm very happy with my purchase. I put ~200 rounds through it and got some very nice groupings. Also shot it against a comparable Glock in .45 and the XD performed much better.

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How is the recoil compared to a full sized 1911?

I've never shot a 45 except 1911s.

E-A

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I'm not sure which model Glock I shot but I didn't notice any difference between it and the XD in terms of recoil. The XD did seem to fit my hand better as the Glock was a bit fatter on the grip. The only real difference I noticed was accuracy between the two but it's possible the Glock was dirty. My XD was perfectly new and clean... I've no clue how many rounds he put through the glock before I got my hands on it.

Shot 3 different types of ammo that day and found winchester to be the most accurate among winchester, remington, and blazer (total crap ammo)

Oh, just realized the 1911 is a SA model LoL

No clue. I'm fairly inexperienced with shooting a variety of handguns. I was a bit worried about the recoil of a .45 before I shot it.... but it wasn't so bad at all.

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Grips on Glock 45s leave something to be desired.

I have never seen it discussed if recoil is different on Polymer 45 VS Metal or Grip angle makes a difference.

Anyway thanks for the info and welcome to GIM i see your relatively new.

E-A

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Here's a video of 1 of the girls I went with shooting a 12ga shotgun :bear_w00t:

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<< G30 here-- I have small hands and wrists.. the recoil is plenty manageable.- easy really... in fact i think a g22 has more recoil

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I just picked up the XD9 sub compact. It's my first plastic pistol, and it's fun to shoot. Once I find an IWB holster, it'll probably be my CCW.

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Update,

After much thought I'VE CHANGED MY MIND ON GUNS. I'm going with the GLOCK 21. My decision came down to the following:

1. All the Guns that made the final cut ( p220, Kimber 1911, .357 revolver, HK .45) ARE RELIABLE.

2. They all are Good weapons for Self defense.

3. Glocks and 1911 have the most parts available if SHTF.

4. Glock is affordable for the quality vs. the others. I can add a night sight and still spend around the same as the others. My budget can absorb it. So I get more for less. Great Deal.

5. Glock is easy to learn to BREAK DOWN. Important to me to master the basics of breaking downing, putting back together, cleaning and etc. Lots of nice books out there and Classes.

5. Many Cops and LEO use these Guns, which as I stated before means they are widely available, thus parts will be available out there if SHTF.

6. For Back up. I will add a revolver to the mix, for the same reasons at some point. Probably the .357. If I have time and money, I will add the 1911 also if I have time, because it is widely available. Parts and etc. So G21 1st , revolver, 1911.

FOR me it came down to reliability, durability, ease of learning ( Armory), availabilty of parts ( I guess the .357 doesn't quite fit the bill here, but I hope because it has less parts, it will last longer and need them infrequently, if at all.)

Thank you all, your opinions and sites you directed me to, and books you advised WERE INVALUABLE!!! I'm THANKFUL for your vivid discussions ( there were some GEMS in there). Some of you are really informed shooters!!!! THANKS!!! SOME OF YOU ARE NOT! Like the guy who offered his advice and doesn't own a GUN! but reads a lot. I read A lot too Fool!! GOLD, SILVER, SEEDs, & Tools!!! Don't forget your hand gun and lead.

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.................

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EXCELLENT CHOICE. I am a Glock 21 owner and it is the one gun I would grab to defend myself and I would do so without ANY hesitation.

Check out this thread on glock talk for info about a good INSIDE THE WAISTBAND HOLSTER for that 21 for 44 bucks all leather. I own one myself and it is a good holster if you need one.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=850733

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Silver, have you already shot .45's, .40's, 9mm's and such to see which caliber you shoot the best with? I only carry 9mm nowadays, I prefer less recoil and am more accurate with it.

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I've been thinking of maybe picking one of these up myself. How much does this program set you back anyway? One beautiful looking gun, that is for sure! As far as the Girl at the range, I'm sure the rangemaster was less than impressed with that crap. Someone should have at least gone over the basics, BEFORE going to the range!

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it was a s&w 38 cal break top nickle plated i borrowed from my dad and stuffed in my cowboy hostler then went out and played cowboys & Indians i was 7 yrs old. but i knew what it could do and it was never loaded. a great memory. my first registered was a p 08 lugar 9mm. i got a ruger rst 4inch barrel soon after as its a dopilganger of the p 08.. and 22cal ammos works on game cheep! my personal favorite the Belgium p35 browning Hi power. but (any) functioning armament is o.k. by me! however us military cals are logisticaly best here. mix & match.

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Thanks,

You're very knowledgeable.

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It was about ~$650 when it was all said and done. This one's even nicer looking IMO

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/upl...5_12_33376.jpg

Had I known of it at the time, I'd have gotten it instead.

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Springfield makes excellent 1911s, never owned one fo their Glock clones though, they look sharp.

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The guy you're referring too is probably pulling your leg. It's a time-honored tradition at GIM to not own any precious metals or firearms. :wink:

Good choice on the Glock. I've owned a G30, G23, and G26. The G30 has always been my favorite. Of course, I gave away all three last year in the Gunz 4 Sneakerz program, and I got a sweet pair of vintage Kangaroos in the deal. I came to the realization that guns are bad and they hurt people, and I've never regretted my decision since! :applause_

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Me too, I gave all mine away for a pair of green Chuck Taylors.

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Yep,

I was just joking not looking for a gun. Gold and Silver is stupid anyway, i want some hard core FRN. Silly rabbits and conspiracy theorists! you guys suck. Stand behind Reserve notes

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Thanks for the info on the Glock Talk forum, Percival. I'll have to go check that out. :wink: :wink:

:smokin: